Sunday, March 27, 2005

Re: Two Engines

From: "Wendell Huffman" wwhuffma@clan.lib.nv.us

"Argenta" was the name assigned to one of the Schenectady locomotives ordered on 1 Feb 1869 by the CP and built for them, but then sold to other companies before being delivered to California. Then name was subsequently assigned to the old SVRR No.1 "Sacramento" when it was incorporated into the CP roster at No.166 by 1 March 1870. I do not know that it was a "dinkey", but it was a Hinckley (the way SP spelled it) – 14 x 20" cylinders, 48" drivers.

W.


Betsy Baker 1867. Courtesy of Jim Wilke.
Oregon engine, the Betsy Baker, in 1867, see comment.
Courtesy of Jim Wilke.

28 Comments:

Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: lmullaly@jeffnet.org

Thank you for your help with Argenta. This seems to settle that issue.

Regarding "Dinkey" Possibly the word is "Hinckley." But these would be the only instance in the year-long journal in which a manufacturer's name is used rather than an engine number or engine name.

Linking this engine to the Flea or a similar engine perhaps makes more sense than the CP Huntington, which was inoperative as a result of a collision near San Jose from June 1872 till 1875. The reference to a Steven's rebuild during this time contradicts other information that the engine was rebuilt in 1974-1875 at SPs San Francisco Shops.

Larry Mullaly

3/27/2005 11:52 AM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

Not a lot of CP/SP Dinkeys come to mind in 1872-3. Maybe the Wm Penn? I suppose it could be the steam car we know as the Flea (ex-Napa Valley). The Oakland and Alameda Vulcan 2-2-0s are all gone by that time. I suppose there might be an ex-Market Street RR steam car still around, but I doubt it.
Huntington, Judah, and Oakland (all Danforth singles). Not much else I might expect to have the nickname "Dinkey".

Kyle K. Wyatt
Curator of History & Technology
California State Railroad Museum

Note my work address has changed to: kwyatt@parks.ca.gov
My personal address remains: kylewyatt@aol.com

3/28/2005 8:38 AM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: "Wendell Huffman" wendellhuffman@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Two Engines. Really?

Could not the "Dinky" and the "Argenta" have been one and the same? It was one of the smallest (if not indeed the smallest) 4-4-0s on the roster.

3/28/2005 9:47 AM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: kylewyatt@aol.com

I suppose the Argenta might be the Dinkey, but generally the "Dinkey" name gets applied to locos that are rather smaller than even the Argenta. Something like a single drivered engine, or an 0-4-0, or something like that. Nothing on the CP/SP 1872 roster comes to mind other than the Danforth singles and the Wm Penn - or maybe the Flea (former Napa Valley steam car).

Hmmm. Or maybe the SP 0-4-0 built by Union Iron Works (or alternately one of the Cal P 0-4-0s built by Mason).

Kyle

3/28/2005 8:49 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: woodburner@earthlink.net

Argenta was small, as small as the 12x22 twenty ton LA&SP Schenectadys we had down here, but not that much smaller or different from the Booth engines on the SP at the same time.

My impression is that a 4-4-0 would be considered a "road engine" as opposed to a Dinkey, which was typically a smaller, specialized wheel arraingement; usually 0-4-0s, single driver engines, or motors. I think the difference may be more akin to class or purpose of an engine, rather than technical weight - only three tons, for example, separates a 20 ton 4-4-0 from a 17 ton 4-2-4T. One of the odd, very light engines (although not the Huntington, which was laying in ordanary) seems a better candidate, and the Vulcan motor is a very good one.

On the lines of the Vulcan motor, when did the name "Flea" come into being? It would nearly have to be a popular name, very typical of the names for tiny engines - "Little Giant" "Pony" "Lilliput" and so on. Could "Dinkey" be a early name for "Flea"?

Jim

3/28/2005 8:59 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: "Larry Mullaly" lmullaly@jeffnet.org>

Regarding a/the Dinkey. There is a very unusual reference in the Sept. 14, 1872: US Railroad Commissioners’ Report (Goshen to Tipton) that may relate to this topic. The SP lists three engines which appear to have been used in the construction of this portion of the line and assigns them SP numbers. The references are



No. dia. Cylinder Dia. Tons Maker
of wheels & stroke

15 3’4”
16 4’0” 10 x 18 12
17 5’6” 15 x 24 30 Mason, Taunton, Mass.

In the corporate report filed later that year the SP disowns this information in a sense, indicating that it only owned 14 locomotives. There is nothing in the financial records that show the SP ever owned these machines and they never again appear in company reports.

Assuming these locomotives actually existed – and having to live with the very sketchy data – I wonder if one of these might by the Flea (or the Dinkey!).

Larry

3/29/2005 8:23 AM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: kylewyatt@aol.com

Interesting list of locomotives - especially the one with 40 inch drivers (and no cylinder size). For reference, the Flea is traditionally listed as having 42 inch drivers (and 7x14 cylinders), but that is based on 1890s accounts, after we know it had its drive wheels replaced (around 1884, as I recall).

Diebert & Strapac list the San Francisco & Alameda Vulcans 2-2-0 (one of which went to Los Angeles as LA&SP "San Gabriel" as having 60 inch drivers (really?) and 9x18 cylinders. As I recall, Don Duke's SP Locomotives book reproduces a photo of the San Gabriel that included loco specs on it. Someone could check.

I still think we need to at least consider the Booth (Union Iron Works) SF&SJ/SP 0-4-0 #8 as the possible ID for the Dinkey. It has 48 inch drivers and 14x18 cylinders.

Kyle

3/29/2005 3:30 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

See the original message.

3/29/2005 7:26 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

Also see Napa Valley Flea vs. San Gabriel.

4/04/2005 12:09 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: lmullaly@jeffnet.org

Regarding a/the Dinkey. There is a very unusual reference in the Sept. 14, 1872: US Railroad Commissioners' Report (Goshen to Tipton) that may relate to this topic. The SP lists three engines which appear to have been used in the construction of this portion of the line and assigns them SP numbers.

The references are


No. dia. Cylinder Dia. Tons Maker
of wheels & stroke

15 3'4"
16 4'0" 10 x 18 12
17 5'6" 15 x 24 30 Mason, Taunton, Mass.

In the corporate report filed later that year the SP disowns this information in a sense, indicating that it only owned 14 locomotives. There is nothing in the financial records that show the SP ever owned these machines and they never again appear in company reports.

Assuming these locomotives actually existed — and having to live with the very sketchy data — I wonder if one of these might by the Flea (or the
Dinkey!).

Larry

4/22/2005 3:21 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

Returning to this thread, I wonder if the Flea (ex-Napa Valley steam car "Napa") might have been down there on construction. I believe about 1874 that it was sold to the Visalia RR as their #1 (more roster revisions).

One hazard of the US Railroad Commissioners' Reports is I believe the numbering in the rosters should more properly be considered line numbers, not numbers assigned to actual locomotives. Often the line numbers correspond to roster numbers, but not always. further, the Commissioners might be reporting on locos assigned to the construction, including leases power from other (related) companies – such as perhaps the California Pacific steamcar we call the Flea.

The Napa Valley steamcars are generally listed with 9x18 cylinders, and weighing about 10 tons. One later source lists it as weighing 24,850 lbs. On the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining operation it was reported to have 48-inch drivers marked "A. Whitney & Sons" and "1869". Sounds like a good candidate for the #16 in the US Railroad Commissioners' Report above. Our last report of it in the Sacramento area is in work train service on the Knight's Ferry line in October 1870.


Kyle K. Wyatt
Curator of History & Technology
California State Railroad Museum
111 "I" Street
Sacramento, CA 95814

My work address is: kwyatt@parks.ca.gov
My personal address is: kylewyatt@aol.com

4/22/2005 3:22 PM  
Anonymous J. Pappas said...

With respect to the Vulcan 2-2-0 locomotives, we would like to know where we can view any photos of these locomotives. Any help would be appreciated. We've enjoyed reading the posts so far, but we really need more pictures. We've only found two photos so far.
Thank you.

1/06/2006 2:34 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: KyleWyatt@aol.com
Subject: Vulcan 2-2-0 locomotives

I found the following photographs of Vulcan 2-2-0 locos on the web:

LA&SP "San Gabriel"; a much larger copy is at the Fairfield University's website.

The Vaca Valley RR acquired one of the Napa Valley RR steam cars built with a Vulcan 2-2-0 and motive power. After a fire burned the steam car, it was rebuilt as a 2-2-0 locomotive.

One of the Napa Valley steam cars later worked on the San Joaquin Valley Coal Company at Coalinga. this same steam car later was on the sierra Nevada Wood & Lumber Company near Truckee, and has been mistakenly identified as being a former Market Street RR car from San Francisco. Here it is on the San Joaquin Valley Coal Company at Coalinga.

—Kyle

1/06/2006 6:26 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: Hsweetser@aol.com

... However, a drawing of No. 4 of the Market Street Railroad that accompanied an article, "When Steam Ran on the Streets of San Francisco Part II," about the line in the Jan/Feb. 2001 issue of Live Steam (authors Walter Rice & Emiliano Echeverria) looks almost exactly like No. 1 of the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining Company (there are some minor differences around the engineer's door). Also, in an article originally in the Fresno Democrat that was reprinted in the Dec. 1, 1898 Tulare County Times, a "pressman" declared that "I remember her sometime in the 70's when she was run on the Market Street extension in San Francisco. The steam line used to run ... out Market street to Hays park ... "

The person quoted got the decade wrong (the line operated steam only in the '60s), so it's conceivable he also was wrong about the engine being on Market Street. Is it possible there were two of these engine/car combinations in California that were almost exactly alike? (i.e., No. 4 of Market St. RR and No. 1 of SJVCMCo.)

Before San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining Co. No. 1 was used out of Coalinga, it ran as Visalia Railroad No. 1 from 1874 to 1877. And before that, if articles originally in the Fresno Democrat are to be believed, it ran as the pay car of the Central Pacific. This was a claim made by an SP car inspector at Fresno in the article that was reprinted in the Dec. 1, 1898 Tulare County Times. In the Dec. 16, 1899 Hanford Daily Journal, another reprinted article from the Democrat stated that the engine/car combination was the first pay car operated in the San Joaquin Valley south from Lathrop.

On December 30, 2005 on Trainorders.com, Tony Johnson of the Southern Oregon Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society posted a photo of an engine/car combination somewhat similar to No. 1 of the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining Co. The photo, in the chapter's collection, had the wording "S.P. Pay Train" on it. His posting is under the title "Espee Pay Train" but to see archives and full-size photos on Trainorders, one has to be a full-fledged member at $30 a year. I am neither, so I couldn't see a full-size photo to make a proper and complete comparision.

I have never seen anything about the SP operating a 2-2-0 locomotive/car combination for a pay train in any SP steam locomotive reference, yet the articles from the Fresno Democrat and Tony Johnson's photo suggest the SP may have done such. Or is there no chance for any of this?

By the way, the 1887 date of the internet photo of San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining Company No. 1 is wrong. This railroad wasn't built until 1889.

—John Sweetser

1/07/2006 10:47 AM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: "Kevin Bunker" mikadobear45@yahoo.com

There has been, in decades past, a tremendous amount of confusion surrounding the murky histories of the not-well-documented 2-2-0s and steamcars that ran in Northern California from the mid-1860s up to (approximately) to circa 1890. Mostly this confusion stems from others (Best, Joslyn, Kneiss, et al)  jumping to conclusions without access to, or altogether failing to check available facts and first generation references.
 
In short, the so-called SP pay car most likely (but not definitely) was the steam motor car assembled in the Sacramento Shops either from parts or new construction for the Northern Railroad and which initially ran in the early 1870s on the Marysville local. This critter disappears into obscurity very quickly and precious little is known about it at all. More recent speculations about its origins submit that it may have been (most likely) a rebuilt or refreshed C.A. Stevens-built former San Francisco & Alameda steam motor, or perhaps one of the former Market Street Railway (1st road) steam motor, of which there were several different types.
 
The so-called "Flea," which is also often confused with or alluded-to as the SP Pay Car was very likely not used in that service (although the concept of using it isn't altogether farfetched) since its history is a bit better documented and there are very few gaps in its documented service chronology.
 
The engine and boiler portion of the "Flea" was built as Napa Valley Rail Road's "Napa" (1st) by Vulcan, probably under the supervision of A.J. Stevens in 1865 well before his involvement with the Central Pacific, and likely to the designs used by his brother C.A. Stevens for the SF&A motors. The Stevens brothers, like most men of San Francisco area industry in the mid-19th century, freely went from one foundry or machine shop to another conducting or supervising manufacturing and machining work. Both C.A. and A.J. Stevens are on record as having worked now and then for both the San Francisco Vulcan works and a few other shoreside foundries in that city during the 1860s. I suspect theirs was a hand-to-mouth existence at that time, and they simply went wherever the work was at any given moment. While we are not at all sure who supervised the design and construction of the baggage-coach portion of these two motorcars, it has been proposed that it was Henry Casebolt of San Francisco, which makes some sense. Sadly, however, there is no record known that would firmly support any absolute knowledge and both carbodies are long gone, so there's nothing to forensically examine, either.
 
The "Napa" and its 1867-built (also by Vulcan) "Calistoga" worked successfully on the Napa Valley road between the Soscol ferry landing to Napa City and Calistoga up to about the time that California Pacific Railroad took out an operating lease on the NVRR properties and then began imposing its own rolling stock and locomotives on the "Calistoga Branch." At this interval, both the NVRR steam motors disappear for awhile, and it's during this interval – roughly 1869-70 through 1874 – that they are not well accounted for. Either could have been used variously in public/revenue or railroad construction service nearly anywhere on the expanding CP/SP system in California. They might have seen limited use on the streets of San Francisco, but since there were also near-twins that had run on the SF&A (which also had been bumped out of service after the Central Pacific arrived in the East Bay and took over the SF&A) what the news stories recalled as running on the "Market street extension."
 
However, the former "Napa" turned "Flea" (the latter not an officially-documented name, by the way, just one that has a long, traditional folk attribution) was documented as having been put into construction of Tulare to Visalia branch extensions just before it ended up on the roster of the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining road in the late 1880s. It is most logical to assume that it also ran in and around Lathrop somewhere around this interval, again, since the SP's San Joaquin railheads were burgeoning and oddball equipment could prove useful during the post-1873 economic depression when needless expenditures of cash could not be justified and maximum economization was the general rule.
 
San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining later sold their ex-NVRR steam motor to the Hobart logging operation running out of Hobart Mills. and a newspaper account in a Truckee newspaper (I think – my files are all in cold storage) recorded that it could not handle the stiff grades on the Hobart railroad and was soon set aside. It sat in a meadow in Hobart Mills until it burned in a grass fire, which destroyed the wood carbody. The locomotive portion remained there, until it was spied by someone circa 1913-14 who mistook it for one of the engines "used to construct the line over Donner Pass" – that someone (David Joslyn??) obviously mistook it for one of CPRR's Danforth singles, e.g., the "T.D. Judah" which was a stretch since this dinky was far smaller than the "C.P. Huntington" or the "Judah." In any event, the confusion generated some interest and the scorched and rusting hulk was taken down to the SP Sacramento Shops on a steel flat car as a possible candidate for display at the 1915 Pan-Pacific International Exposition. The "C.P. Huntington," instead went to that fair, and the "Flea's" hulk was left to slowly slide off the shop yard northernmost tracks near the old American riverbed and flood control levees. During this period it was photographed several times, both on the flatcar it came on from Hobart Mills and on the shop tracks around the levee. It was either completely dismantled for scrap or pushed complete into a hole in the ground as landfill in order to erect the SP Unit Shop foundry and ancillary structures built in the early 1920s. Whether the "Flea" remains are intact underground is still a mystery, but the possibility that it still exists is compellingly strong.
 
FYI, the best image of any of these Vulcan engines is the collodion plate negative "baby picture" of the "Calistoga" engine parked on a heavy dray at the Vulcan foundry shortly after its 1867-completion and before the carbody was built/attached ro it. This original image, and a crisp large format copy negative, are in the collections of the California State Library California Room on N Street. Many subsequent copies made by others from early prints are "out there" and none have the crisp detail of the CSL copy image.
 
—Kevin Bunker

1/07/2006 10:56 AM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: KyleWyatt@aol.com

Kevin gives a very good overview of the more recent revisionist research that he has been a major contributor in assembling.

What we know (or think we know) is as follows. Briefly, Vulcan produced three 2-2-0 locomotives to Charles W. Stevens (not C. A. Stevens) designs. The first was delivered to the San Francisco & Oakland RR. The other two were subsequently delivered as kits to the San Francisco & Alameda shops and assembled by Andrew J. Stevens (younger brother of C. W.). By the mid 1860s both the SF&O and the SF&A were under common ownership of Alfred Cohen, with A. J. Stevens as Master Mechanic, and later General Manager. By the end of the 1860s Cohen was in the process of selling his lines to the owners of the Central Pacific, and was acquiring larger 4-4-0 locos (both home built and from Schenectady). Two of the three Vulcan 2-2-0s were sold – we suspect the two SF&A engines. The remaining one (we think the SF&O engine) remained as the Oakland switcher and was scrapped by the SP in the early 1870s (although there is one source suggesting this scrapped engine might have actually been a steam car originally from the Market Street RR – see below).

Anyway, one of the sold 2-2-0s went to the Los Angeles and San Pedro as the "San Gabriel". The other was sold to the San Rafael & San Quintin (along with what is believed to be a former Market Street RR steam car that had been sold to the SF&O). In the mid 1870s the SR&SQ was taken over by the narrow gauge North Pacific Coast and the line converted to narrow gauge. After sitting around for a few years, the SR&SQ 2-2-0 was sold to the Heald & Guerne lumber operation. Both of these were eventually scrapped, per documentation that we have.

Returning to Vulcan, in 1865 they built a 2-2-0 mechanism that was used in a steam car (the car believed to have been built by Henry Casebolt). This was the Napa Valley RR steam car "Napa". In 1867 a second Napa Valley steam car named "Calistoga" was built by Vulcan and (we think) Casebolt. In 1869 the California Pacific took over the Napa Valley RR, and the steam cars came under that ownership. Fairly quickly the "Calistoga" was sold to the Vaca Valley RR (later reorganized as the Vaca Valley & Clear Lake). In 1875 it was burned in an engine house fire destroying the car body, and was rebuilt in the Central Pacific Sacramento Shops (under A. J. Stevens, now Central Pacific Master Mechanic) as a 2-2-0 locomotive with tender.

The steam car "Napa" (which may have received the informal nickname "Flea" on the California Pacific) served various functions on the California Pacific including possibly as the pay train. About 1874 (from memory) the steam car was sold to the Visalia RR as their first motive power (and only power until 1877 when the Baldwin 2-4-4T arrived). Later it may have served in the construction of the Visalia & Tulare, although this is not fuly confirmed. Sometime in this period it was also rebuilt in the Central Pacific Sacramento Shops (again under A. J. Stevens). In the late 1880s the steam car went to the San Joaquin Valley Coal Company. An early 1890s account by its engineer appears to be the source of the mis-information that it operated on the Market Street RR in San Francosco.

In 1896, several years after the San Joaquin Valley Coal Company closed down, the steam car was sold to the Sierra Nevada Wood & Lumber Company near Truckee where it was #4 (1st). Retired around the turn of the century, it was eventually stored in a meadow that burned in a grass fire, destroying the car body. The 2-2-0 locomotive portion remained derilict for several years until it was confused with the former Central Pacific #4 "T. D. Judah" (a 4-2-4T, rebult by Central Pacific as a 4-2-2 tender engine). the little Vulcan 2-2-0 was shipped to Sacramento for preservation. When it was realized that it was not, in fact, the "Judah", it was left in a back area of the Shops, and reportedly eventually buried in fill. It may still be there, and we have hopes we might find it during the HazMat remediation now going on at the Shops.

So what is with all these references to Market Street RR steam cars? In 1860-61 four steam cars were built to C. W. Stevens designs for the Market Street RR in San Francisco. (These steam cars looked nothing like the later Napa Valley steam cars, as the "locomotive" portion was completely enclosed inside the steam car body on the Market Street RR steam cars.) A. J. Stevens arrived in Califonria in 1861 and worked with his brother on several projects. This included 3 locomotive for Oregon and Washington, the first of which, "Oregon Pony", survives to this day in Oregon. A. J. also became the master mechanic for the Market Street RR.

In 1865 control of the Market Street RR was acquired by the San Francisco & San Jose RR, who hoped to run trains down Market Street. The city did not allow this. In 1867 the Market Street RR itself was forced by the City to give up steam power on Market Street and switch to horse cars. By 1868 control of the San Francisco & San Jose (and the associated Southern Pacific RR) was acquired by the owners of the Central Pacific.

It is not clear what became of the Market Street RR steam cars. The first steam car (smaller than the later three) may have gone to the San Francisco & Oakland and been the first locomotive to operate on that line (reports of first operation of the SF&O predating the arrival of the Vulcan 2-2-0). It is wide open speculation whether or not the SF&O later acquired another Market Street steam car. Several accounts lead us to believe the first car was later dismantled at the Central Pacific Shops in Sacramento, and parts used to build a new steam car (which has often been confused with the former Napa Valley "Napa" described above). We also believe that the SF&O sold a former Market Street RR steam car to the San Rafael & San Quintin at the same time as the Vulcan 2-2-0. Another line of speculation is that the odd locomotive operated as "Mrs. Duncan's Teakettle" along the Russian River may have been rebuilt from a Market Street RR steam car, but based on timing, it presently appears that this is NOT the former SR&SQ steam car.

Overall, there are many huge gaps in our knowledge of what became of the Market Street RR steam cars, and much of the above could be revised by new information.

—Kyle

1/08/2006 12:01 AM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

See reply: SP Pay Car Steamcar.

1/08/2006 12:46 AM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: Hsweetser@aol.com

What about the drawing of Market Street Railroad No. 4 that is with the article "When Steam Ran on the Streets of San Francisco Part II"? The car body portion of that drawing looks almost exactly like the car body of San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining Company No. 1, which was the first locomotive of the Visalia Railroad and earlier, according to what Kevin Bunker and Kyle Wyatt wrote, was the steam car "Napa" of the Napa Valley Railroad. The only things different on the car body in the drawing compared to a photo of SJVCMCo. No. 1 that I can see are ladder rungs behind the engineer's door, a difference in the molding above the door and lack of a window on the baggage door. Also, in the drawing of Market Street Railroad No. 4, the steam portion was not "completely enclosed inside the steam car body."

I don't know the source the authors of "When Steam Ran on the Streets of San Francisco Part II" used for their drawing of Market Street Railroad No. 4 but should it be discounted entirely?

—John Sweetser

1/19/2006 12:38 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: "Jim Wilke" woodburner@earthlink.net

The engine illustrated is in fact the Napa. The Market Street Railroad engines were of an entirely different design, with – according to the authors – a vertical boiler for No. 1 and return flue horizontal boilers for Nos. 2-4. The return flue boiler places the stack on the rear of the boiler, while Napa has the conventional straight flue and forward placement of stack.

Another difference is the wheel arrangement. Napa has a single pair of driving wheels, while the Market Street engines had four coupled drivers. Also, the Market Street engine design incorporates the old fashioned outside frame, which was obsolete by the time Napa was built at Vulcan.

Near-identical engines to the Market Street machines were built at the same time for portage roads in Oregon. The return flue boiler (with the stack projecting up from the cab roof), outside frame, and four coupled driving wheels are clearly visible in photographs of one of these engines taken in 1867 by Carleton Watkins. [Here is] an image of an Oregon engine, the Betsy Baker, in 1867.

The only difference on the Oregon engine is the flatcar-style body, which may be the original design for Oregon or altered from a full body by 1867.

—Jim

1/19/2006 2:42 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: "Kevin Bunker" mikadobear45@yahoo.com

The drawing in "When Steam Ran ... " should be discounted entirely for the Market Street steam cars. It is the drawing made by Cap Frederick Shaw in the late 1940s, and while it is an excellent drawing technically speaking, it is nothing more than a misidentified representation of the Napa Valley Railroad's steam motor, Napa in its form when working on the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining Co's operation, and also as it was prior to burning on the Hobart Estate SNW&L Co railroad. Shaw's drawing also was made after the demise of the steam motor in question, so may not be 100% accurate.
 
—Kevin Bunker

1/19/2006 3:42 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: KyleWyatt@aol.com

As you have no doubt gathered by the posts by Jim and Kevin, the image on the web that shows "steam car #4 is part of the long-running misidentification. The drawing shows the Napa, not one of the Market Street RR steamcars. The steam car in the drawings IS the one that became the San Joaqwuin Valley Coal Co. steamcar.

For reference on the Market Street cars, car #1 was (to approximate with standard locomotive notation) an 0-2-2T with a verticle boiler. It was 24 feet long – 6 feet for the engine, 5 feet for baggage, and 13 feet for passengers. It's engines were smaller than the later steamcars, and proved rather under powered on the Market Street grade. some evidence suggests it was later sold to the San Francisco & Oakland RR, and may in fact have been the vehicle that opened service on that line.

Cars #2 and #3 were 0-4-0T cars, shorter than #1 - 18 feet long. They had horizontal boilers occupying 8 feet of the car body, leaving 10 feet for passengers.

Car #4 was another 0-2-2T, but with a horizontal boiler and larger engines than #1. Like #1, #4 was 24 feet long, but it is unclear the size of the engine and boiler compartment.

Car #4 had a return flue boiler. It is unclear whether others had return flue boilers, but a lithograph of car #3 in Hayes Valley seems to show such a boiler. On the other hand, an engraving showing a shorter Market Street car (either #2 or #3) appears to show a conventional boiler.

Attached is a compilation of info I put together on the steam cars some time ago.

—Kyle

1/20/2006 11:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good heavens! While researching the Napa City and Calistoga locomotives I followed the link to the photo of the Napa City above and found this;

http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/kt1k4018zv/

another photo of the Napa City and of the right side!

7/31/2012 2:43 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

The view of the former NVRR "Napa" steam motor car at
http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/kt1k4018zv/ is pretty late, circa 1885-90, and shows the dinky in her guise at the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining tramway operation. I have come to believe (more recently) that this operation was not at Coalinga (as some have earlier supposed) but in the area near the Tesla coal fields of the northwestern San Joaquin Valley. The photo may have been taken not long before the steam car was sold to a Stockton equipment dealer who in turn resold it to the Hobart's SNW&LCo pike operating out of Truckee and Hobart Mills.

So far, no historic image of the "Napa" or "Napa City" (as it is sometimes called in historic sources) running on the Napa valley Rail Road has surfaced. There is only the builder's portrait of "Napa's" twin "Calistoga" taken outside the Vulcan SF plant before the engine was delivered to the railroad and before the coach body was attached. No views of the "Calistoga" with her coach body have yet been found, either.

One more outstanding mystery remains: the NVRR had on hand a "contractor's dummy engine" which was used to pull short trains when the "Napa" was in the shop for repairs following a bad derailment in 1866. Wholly unclear is what this dummy engine was; I posit that it may have been one of the San Francisco-built 0-4-0 geared engines such as used by David Hewes (as the "Steam Paddy") to extend the city waterfront and seawalls along the bay shore east of Telegraph Hill. So everybody dial your search radar to "high" and let's see what more we can learn!

8/01/2012 12:16 PM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: Hsweetser@aol.com

Someone wrote:

The view of the former NVRR "Napa" steam motor car is pretty late, circa 1885-90, and shows the dinky in her guise at the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining tramway operation.

"Tramway operation?" I've never come across anything that stated the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining Company had a tramway operation.

I have come to believe (more recently) that this operation was not at Coalinga (as some have earlier supposed) but in the area near the Tesla coal fields of the northwestern San Joaquin Valley.

If "this operation" is referring to the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining Company's operation, well, the company definitely had a mine three miles northwest of Coalinga. Plenty of documentation to support this.

By the way, in 1891, the San Joaquin Valley Coal Mining Company built a 3-mile-long railroad (or maybe a 3.1-mile-long railroad; I'm relying on memory here) between their mine and Coalinga to haul the coal. That is why they needed a locomotive.

—John Sweetser

8/01/2012 8:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

According to The Western Rairoad Encyclopedia NVRR #1 was a 0-4-0 built by Casebolt. I believe that Mr. Wyatt's short article on Steam Cars has some details on the engine. Sufficent to say that it was only in service a very short time, horses proving to be more dependable and considerably safer.

The same source lists the Napa as having 54" drivers as built but by the time it became CP #229 "Flea" these had changed to 42" and the weight had gone up to 64900 which seems a rather radical change. This gives me to wonder about the diameter of the drivers on all the pictures we have of the Napa.

Norm Hartnett

8/05/2012 10:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pardon me, the source was The Encyclopedia of Western Railroad History Vol.4 by Robertson. Using this source and hints provided here I've put together this tentitive service history for the Napa.
1865-1869 NVRR #2 "Napa"
1869-1874 Cal P #15(?) "Flea"
1874-1877 VRR #1 "Visalia"
1877-1889 CP #229 "Flea"
1889- SJV Coal Co. #1
1896- Sierra Nevada Wood #4

Norm Hartnett

8/05/2012 10:32 AM  
Blogger CPRR Discussion Group said...

From: "Kyle K. Wyatt" kylekwyatt@gmail.com

Attached are a few items I have for the Napa Valley RR.

—Kyle


Alta_California Volume 17, Number 5604, 11 July 1865 - Opening of the Napa Railroad.

1870 Cal P loco Flea collision - Sacramento Daily Union, Volume 40, Number 6091, 10 October 1870.

1870 Cal P Flea as Pay Car - Sacramento Daily Union, Volume 39, Number 5942, 13 April 1870.

1868-4-15 Napa Valley RR Loco - Daily Alta California, Volume 20, Number 6605, 15 April 1868, citing the Reporter.

1865-11-18 Napa Valley RR steamcar Napa - Sacramento Daily Union, Volume 30, Number 4574, 18 November 1865.

1865-6-24 Napa Valley RR Update - Sacramento Daily Union, Volume 29, Number 4449, 24 June 1865.

8/05/2012 10:33 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Huh, after some careful measurements using the diameter of the boiler as my measuring stick (40") I am forced to the conclusion that the diameter of the driving wheel on all photos of both the Napa and the Calistoga is about 54" which would lead to the conclusion that the driving wheels were never resized. Comparing the diameter of the wheels against people standing nearby also supports this as it is just about upper chest to shoulder high.

8/06/2012 12:33 PM  

Post a Comment

<< Recent Messages