Locomotive 121, wrecked c. 1920
From: "Jon Jordan" jjordan@riousa.com
Do you have any information on locomotive 121, wrecked around 1920 or so, near Kingvale, California near Soda Springs or Donner Summit – fell into a ravine?? ...
Jon Jordan
Grants Pass, OR
posted from CPRR Discussion Group at 8:56 AM
18 Comments:
From: kylewyatt@aol.com
By 1920 pretty much all SP locos had 4-digit numbers. I'm not sure what #121 would be.
—Kyle
Jon Jordan wrote:
Thank you so much-on the encyclopedia- the header
information-date, is that date built? #24 Yuba-exploded 1868 but date-8/66???
Also builder- Danf. What is that, what does Effort mean?(on top)
Then- 1891 Ren.-??? (on top header)
I think we are close to identifying the locomotive.#121
Jon & Calleen Jordan
Grants Pass, OR
Date = date built
Danf. = Danforth
"Effort" = Tractive Effort
1891 Ren = renumbering done in 1891
From: "Jon Jordan" jjordan@riousa.com
The Placer Herald, (July 5, 1919 p. 1 col. 6) mentions a train wreck at Gold Run, Placer County on June 28, 1919.
Any info on this from you folks??? Maybe Danforth 4-4-0 #121, specific location, was it destroyed?
Jon & Calleen Jordan
Grants Pass, OR
From: "Wendell Huffman" wendellhuffman@hotmail.com
In reading the whole string I am not sure what the question is any more. The first CP 121 was a Danforth-built locomotive that became Stockton & Copperopolis 1 and was off the SP-related property in 1895. The second 121 was a Mason-built 4-4-0 acquired with the California Pacific and renumbered 1211 in 1891 and sold in 1906. The no. 25 Yuba was destroyed in an explosion in October 1868, but that was near Clipper Gap, a long way from Kingvale – which is also quite a ways from Kingvale/Donner Pass – and also not easily confused with 1920. I wonder if the "121" was a train number. What is the source of the original information about a wreck at Kingvale about 1920? Was it referred to as such in a newspaper, or is that number apparent in a photograph.
—Wendell
Jon Jordan wrote:
Did Central Pacific own the RR over Donner Pass in the 20's???
Jon & Calleen Jordan
Grants Pass, OR
Southern Pacific Railroad
Jon Jordan wrote:
What is the asterisk by the engine #??? And there is a #121(replacements,second #'s and later additions) at the end of the list? Built by Mason, March 1867, 4-4-0 -(in the encyclopedia web site) thanks
—Jon
Jon & Calleen Jordan
Grants Pass, OR
Not sure what the asterisk signifies.
From: "Jon Jordan" jjordan@riousa.com
How about #1211? also in 1920 Probably Southern Pacific owned the rail from CPRR
Jon & Calleen Jordan
Grants Pass, OR
From: kylewyatt@aol.com
Starting in 1891, all Central Pacific and Southern Pacific locomotives carried 4-digit numbers. Further, Central Pacific #121 was renumbered as #1163 in 1891, and was scrapped in 1895. Whatever was wrecked at Gold Run in 1919, it most certainly was not Central Pacific #121.
—Kyle
Jon & Calleen -
You keep asking questions about locomotive #121, and then about #1121 - all of which were scrapped long before 1920. Please share INFORMATION that you have that is the basis for your questions. If we know what you are looking at, we might be able to give you something concrete. So far your questions have just sent us down dead end rabbit holes.
Kyle
From: "Jon Jordan" jjordan@riousa.com
Encyclopedia page 107 shows engine 121, page 109 shows engine 121 renumbered in 1891 to 1121-although I understand they are two different engines plus later Southern Pacific bought Central Pacific.
The top of the columns are type, driver, builder, builder #, date, weight, effort, 1891 renumbered.
The year 1920 has to do with its wreck.
Then nder 'On identifying the origin of bell'- says # on top of bell shows engine #.
Thx-
—Jon & Calleen Jordan
From: kylewyatt@aol.com
Ok. Let's get back to basics. Finding info on the various Central Pacific and Southern Pacific locomotives numbered 121 and/or 1121 is easy. What we need is information about the supposed 1920 wreck (and what remains from it) that started this whole thing.
CP 1st #121 - named American Eagle, 4-4-0 built by Danforth in 1868, became Stockton & Visalia #1 in 1871, later Stockton & Copperoppolis #1 (both companies Central Pacific subsidiaries at the time). In the 1891 renumbering it became #1163. Scrapped 1895.
CP 2nd #121 - former California Pacific #5, 4-4-0 built by Mason in 1867, to Central Pacific in 1872. In the 1891 renumbering it became 1st #1121. Sold to Northern Electric (a predecessor of Sacramento Northern) in 1906, scrapped a couple of years later.
SP #121 - 4-4-0 built by Schenectady in 1880. In 1891 renumbering became #1335. Scrapped 1912.
SP #1121 - 0-6-0 built by ALCo in 1904. Scrapped 1950.
So in 1920, only 0-6-0 #1121 is still in existence. And it continues in existence until 1950.
So please tell us about the 1920 wreck. It would appear that none of the above locomotives had anything to do with it – most had been cut up for scrap years before 1920, and the 0-6-0 switcher continued in its normal yard service until 1950. So what so do you have, and why do you keep fixating on #121 and/or #1121? And can you share a photo of what you have?
—Kyle
From: "Jon Jordan" jjordan@riousa.com
Thank you Kyle for your research. This is the bell my Uncle who is 83 gave to us. Has been in the family 90 yrs. His story-great grand father – James Brennen – lived in Loomis, CA, had a mountain house in Kingvale, CA – he worked for the railroad and was a fruit farmer. Born 1870 – died 1940. He and his son James Brennen Jr. got the bell from a wrecked train in a ravine near soda springs, CA around 1920 or earlier?? Near Pahatsi boy scout camp.
As you can see 121 etched on top of bell. Bell base is bent – and some scrapes, suggesting –wreck. Research says locomotive number was commonly etched on top of bell. I'm just curious where and when or if there was a wreck. I would like to go to the place where the train wrecked.
—Jon & Calleen Jordan, Grants Pass, OR
From: kylewyatt@aol.com
That is very helpful. The bell has in a fairly standard design bell bracket, but details of the specific design are similar to some produced in the Southern Pacific (Central Pacific) Sacramento Shops. The "square" top shoulder of the bell is also rather distinctive.
The number "121" is clearly hand-engraved into the top of the bell (as is common, but not necessarily universal). No road identification is included - just the number, again consistent with common practice. It does seem reasonable to assume the number is the number of the locomotive that originally carried the bell.
There is a pattern number cast into the top hanger - I think it is "GP 31", but I cannot see clearly.
As to how the bell came to be where it was found, I have no information to shed light on that, and so it would be difficult to hazard a guess as to the circumstances under which locomotive the bell came off of. we do not have complete records of locomotives and their various wrecks - particularly for such early locos.
If I had to hazard a guess I might suggest it came off of Southern Pacific 4-4-0 #121, simply because it lasted until 1912, and so likely underwent the mid 1890s rebuilds (and received a SP-style bell) - but that is only a rough guess. The other two 4-4-0s were scrapped in the 1890s instead of rebuilding.
Nice bell.
—Kyle
From: "Jon Jordan" jjordan@riousa.com
This might be some more info on the bell and #'s on the castings.
'In 1920 app. At the mountain house, as they called it, in KINGVALE town, house built by Owen King, Calleen's great great great grandfather on her mothers side, had a nearby train wreck down a ravine. Near the house. Maybe Boy Scout camp 'PAHATSI'. Near Soda Springs. See RR map. Also Lake Serene.
Probably the Central Pacific Railroad (but in 1920 was owned by Southern Pacific) which was the rail that originally, in May 10, 1869, joined the East and West coast at Promontory, Utah. (Golden spike)
Charles Crocker used 12,000 Chinese labors to blast solid rock to build the RXR over Donner summit. Apparently, Jim Brennen and his son Jr. found it, carried the bell, back to the mountain house. The bell is 33 inches high from the base. 16 in. diameter of the bell. Has 121 cut on the top of the bell which was probably the train #. On the bottom of the cradle-AT30, top of the yoke-GP31. This weighs app175 lbs. Bronze bell-probably, (alloy-mainly copper with some tin). Base is bent and there are some chips out suggesting a crash. Two bolt holes in the pedestal. The pull handle was broken but rewelded – not by me. Also includes the 'clapper'.'
Jon & Calleen Jordan
Grants Pass, OR
From: "Jon Jordan" jjordan@riousa.com
Thank you for your hard work – it is truly a prized possession as it has been in my wife's family for 90 years and she remembers it being rang, as she visited her Uncle as a child, to come to dinner at the ranch.
Thanks for all you do.
Jon & Calleen Jordan
Grants Pass, OR
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