Question: Real Estate Property including the Old Grade
From: "Erich Wolmart" wellington@thecrexent.com, Lifeuvalue@aol.com
I need to know what happens when the old railroad track goes through a piece of property that you are buying.
—Erich Wolmart
posted from CPRR Discussion Group at 11:30 AM
16 Comments:
From: "Wendell Huffman" wendellhuffman@hotmail.com
That may depend upon local law, and it may also depend upon how the railroad got their right of way in the first place. It seems to me that for a long time property used for rights of way reverted to the adjacent landowner upon railroad abandonment. With the move to "rails-to-trails" there may be a change in that rights of way becomes public domain. The actual facts in the matter of a specific property should be spelled out in the title search. I would think your local realtor would know what happens locally.
—Wendell
Suggest that you review the title report on the property with your real estate attorney.
From: kylewyatt@aol.com
If the railroad acquired only the right to build across land, then it normally was supposed to revert when the railroad was removed. However, if the railroad acquired actual title to the land, then it was railroad property in the fullest sense, just like any other private property. Land grant land included full title to the land.
—Kyle
From: kylewyatt@aol.com
It depends on how the railroad acquired their right-of-way. Sometimes they owned the land outright. Sometimes they just purchased the right to build the railroad across the land. In the latter case, it typically was supposed to revert to the original owner, or the successor owner of the overall land. However, Rails-to-Trails legislation has added new issues, aimed at keeping rights-of-way intact for other public uses. In any case, it should be spelled out in the title, filed with the County Recorder.
—Kyle Wyatt
From: "Chris Graves" caliron@cwnet.com
What Kyle has surfaced is quite true. As a lender, I was often asked to finance lease-hold improvements on SPRR property, that was adjoining the SPRR grade. While the SPRR was fully in favor of such lease-hold improvements, such a loan was often unable to be funded as the property along the grade was not in a conventionally surveyed nor conventionally described (by metes and bounds, or by tract/township location). This lack of description prevented a title company from issuing a policy of title insurance. Frustrated title companies would often call in response to a clients request, telling of the legal description being so many feet from "mile post —", which is was not acceptable. From those conversations, I concluded that, at least here in California, the SPRR right of way, as well as the land immediately adjacent to the right of way, was one long strip, not subdivided, from San Francisco to the Nevada State Line.
—G J Graves
From: kylewyatt@aol.com
SP (and CP before it) surveyed and identified locations in its own way for its own purposes. Mileposts are the logical reference system for them. And since a milepost does have a specific locatable position on the earth, a surveyor could do a survey of a parcel based on a starting point of a milepost. (Of course, it would require hiring a surveyor.)
While recorded property descriptions in deeds can be quite extensive for individual rail lines (there is a whole string of individual deeds for the right-of-way that the California State Railroad Museum has down to Hood on the old Walnut Grove Branch), I suspect the land grant was never surveyed and recorded in similar fashion, coming directly form the Federal government to the Railroad as it did. Although I observe that the grants themselves were based on section, township and range (particularly for the checkerboard associated land in the grant), so once again that fundamental land survey information was in existance for a modern surveyor to do their work. And railroad rights-of-way maps generally do show property lines rendered into a form that a surveyor (or a title company) should be able to understand.
—Kyle
From: "Chris Graves" caliron@cwnet.com
"Should be able" does not always translate into "be able."
—gjg
From: kylewyatt@aol.com
Insisting that the world's reality conform to ones own crampted little vision of how things "should" work is a common enough human failing, particularly when there is no downside for those insisting.
—Kyle
From: "Rob Krantz" rmkrantz@pacbell.net
Not sure what he is asking really. If there is a track though a property he is purchasing, he should determine through a preliminary title report of the property if the RR has an easement interest in the property for the tracks. Sometimes the RR has an easement into a property for protection of the tracks. If the tracks are private industry track, then the RR may not have an easement. If that is the case, he can have the tracks and other equipment removed. Hope this helps.
Perhaps the property is on the old grade with tracks long gone, but he is wondering what the ownership implications are due to the history of the property.
Spoke with the Placer County Surveyors Office today, they confirm that the CPRR/SPRR/UPRR grade has not been subdivided, it is of 'various widths'. This would explain the Title Companies reluctance to issue a policy of title insurance. The Surveyors Office also noted that the old grade was "the railroad grade" and not to be used for buildings...gjg
From: "Edson T. Strobridge" etstrobridge@fix.net
To add confusion to what has already been said, as a former large Public Utility operating manager I can attest to the fact that if the railroad had an easement across a parcel of land, it would depend on just how the easement conditions were written. One example comes to mind; if the easement were written to include the right to construct and operate a railroad AND the right to install underground "utilities", appurtences, etc., no matter what the original intent, than the right to install pipelines were often sold to others, i.e. Oil Companies, GAS companies etc. All that being said, anyone who contested the rights in an old abandoned railroad right-of-way easement that included pipelines were in for a peck of legal issues that were rarely settled easily. It depended on the final legal interpretation of the rights granted if the challenger had enough money to take on the owner of the pipeline.
—Ed Strobridge
THE KATY RR RAN THOUGH OUR TOWN AND HAD A LARGE RIGHT-OF-WAY IN THE CENTER OF TOWN. IN THE 1970s IT ABANDONED THE ROUTE AND SOLD A QUIT CLAIM DEED TO A SALVAGE COMPANY. THEY SOLD TO ANOTHER PARTY WHO CAME THROUGH TOWN AND SOLD QUIT CLAIM DEEDS TO CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS. I WAS AND AM THE ADJOINING LANDOWNER TO ONE LARGE PARCEL AND WAS NEVER CONTACTED. THE LAND HAS BEEN IN DISPUTE ABOUT OWNERSHIP AND NO TAXES ARE COLLECTED ON ANY OF IT. THE LAND ADJOINING MINE WAS SOLD WITH A WARRANY DEED, A LOAN OBTAINED AND A COMMERCIAL BUILDING CONSTRUCTED ON IT. I HAVE ALWAYS THOUGHT THE LAW WAS BROKEN OR SKIRTED AND NOW I AM READING OF SEVERAL COURT CASES WHERE THE LAND SHOULD HAVE REVERTED TO ADJOINING PROPERY OWNERS AND THEIR RIGHTS HAVE BEEN AFFIRMED. WOULD IT BE ADVISABLE FOR ME TO PERSUE MY INTERESTS IN THE ADJOINING PROPERTY? ANY HELP APPRECIATED. A NONY MOUS
From: "Chris Graves" caliron@cwnet.com
Contact the Title Company that insured the parcel as being available for sale. That Title Company will have a chain of title back to year One, or will be darned embarressed about its error.
—gjg
The best advice is to discuss your situation with a local real estate attorney expert in such matters.
From: KyleWyatt@aol.com
Subject: Railroad Real Estate Dispute
This is a recurring question. The answer depends on the method by which the railroad acquired the particular piece of right-of-way in question. The answer will be found by tracing back the original deed for the particular parcel in county records.
Sometimes railroads purchased only right-of-ways from land owners, with reversionary clauses upon abandonment of the railroad. Sometimes railroads purchased full title to the land they used, just like any other land owner. There is no way to know without finding a copy of the original deed in the county records.
—Kyle
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